Comment posted Satan the Scapegoat by Will.
I should have replied to your reply, my bad haha. Perhaps I should register too?
Will also commented
- The free will vs. divine sovereignty debate is one that will never be settled. And to be honest, I'm fine with that. I think it's very healthy to discuss these topics but it sadens me when Christians argue so much over this to the point of division. I think they are both possible in God (as you mentioned) and I think this is what the Bible teaches. How are the both possible at the same time? Although I think attributing everything to 'the mystery of God' is usually a cop out answer, this is one of those things I think I'll never understand with my finite mind and that doesn't bother me.
- The free will vs. divine sovereignty debate is one that will never be settled. And to be honest, I’m fine with that. I think it’s very healthy to discuss these topics but it sadens me when Christians argue so much over this to the point of division. I think they are both possible in God (as you mentioned) and I think this is what the Bible teaches. How are the both possible at the same time? Although I think attributing everything to ‘the mystery of God’ is usually a cop out answer, this is one of those things I think I’ll never understand with my finite mind and that doesn’t bother me.
- Well I partially agree with you on that statement, but that's another topic so I'll leave it at that.
- I do, and I actually agree with you when you said “This is an act that could be only seen to be good and beneficial if you follow God.”
And you and I are both making presuppositions. Books have been written about these topics in order to qualify them…I don't have that kind of time haha. But perhaps in the future I'll better qualify them for your sake (and other readers…if anyone reads these comments).
- You opened the door to my 'mythological' comments when you posed the question: Why doesn't God kill Satan…? That question assumes that God and Satan exist (and I'm further assuming that you're talking about the God and Satan of the Bible), which means you're posing the question in a mythological context. If you're assuming that mythological context than it only makes sense to answer that question with mythological theology. You even attempt to do this by saying, “It would seem to me in the context of this mythology that Satan is just a minion of God because nobody in their right mind would willingly go against such a petty, cruel, violent, vindictive and malevolent being knowing that he is also all-powerful.” So if you're trying to provide a conclusion in the context of this mythology, then why can't I? You follow me?
Recent comments by Will
- God Exists!
If you die for me out of your love, taking on the punishment that I deserve, and then rise from the dead, conquering sin and proving your divinity…and if you continue to radically change the lives of those around me…then we can talk. - Appealing to the Supernatural
I agree with you for the most part on this post. There is circumstantial surrounding the resurrection of Jesus and the events that occurred afterwords that help solidify my faith. Obviously you and I view that evidence differently and so we've reached different conclusions, but it's not like we just pulled an idea out of a hat and rolled with it. - Popularity Contest
Here's an article for starters: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3993857… (http://news NULL.bbc NULL.co NULL.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3993857 NULL.stm) - Popularity Contest
With regards to your “First part = No True Scotsman”. I can see where you're coming from on this but all I was trying to say is that if someone decideds follows Christ, the Bible, which I believe is the Word of God, explains what sorts of changes you should see. If these changes aren't observed then I'd question whether they genuinely decided to follow Christ or not. - Popularity Contest
Why is that meaningless if it helps point to what Christianity is all about, namely, Jesus?
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For fear that I might water down a response to the question posed, I'm going to let John Piper answer it for you. It's a serious question you're asking and although the answer may not seem obvious, it's actually quite beautiful and satisfying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQq8xuGBenw (http://www NULL.youtube NULL.com/watch?v=QQq8xuGBenw)
I don't see how what he said adds anything to what I have written. God uses Satan to make himself look better. He uses Satan to glorify himself. But, of course God looks better in comparison to Satan.
He also says that if we don't agree with how God runs things we will perish. And we are right back to might is right. He needs to presume that God exists and is good to justify belief and faith in God. This is just one huge circular argument.
This video might quell a Christian's doubts, but it will not have any effect on a rational atheist.
That you need to suffer the torment of Satan to glorify God only shows how vain, megalomaniacal, and uncaring of a bully he is. If he cared more about humanity and less about his own glory he would not even have let Satan happen much less let him reek havoc on the world for so long.
To clarify, I'm not trying to “quell your doubts” about God or whatnot; I just want to address any misconceptions you have about Christianity or at least help you understand where we're coming from. Additionally, I'm following your blog not only because I think you're a talented writer but also because it fascinates me that you feel so compelled to write about these things given your atheistic worldview. And so I may comment on posts here and there, but the last thing I want is to get in to an argument or debate with you. You'll have to forgive me if I fall below that standard or come across in that way.
Anyways, to the point: I believe the greatest way God can show us His love is for us to experience His glory. What seems egotistical and magalomaniacal is really the single greatest thing that God could give us, Himself. If admiration is one of the deepest longings of the human heart in which we experience the most pleasure and God is the most admirable being, than it follows that our admiration of God will bring us the most joy. God is the one being in the universe that in bringing glory to Himself is not arrogant or egotisical, but is love ! What also blows my mind is the way God allows us to experience this love, through Jesus. Creator enters creation and dies on a cross, conquering death and sin, for you and me? What love! John 15:13 says “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.”
I'll leave you with this quote from C.S. Lewis explaining why praising God (essentially another way of saying 'giving Him glory'), completes our enjoyment:
“But the most obvious fact about praise—whether of God or any thing—strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honor. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless (sometimes even if) shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise-lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favorite game-praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. I had not noticed how the humblest, and at the same time most balanced and capacious, minds, praised most, while the cranks, misfits and malcontents praised least.…
I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise whatever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: “Isn’t she lovely? Wasn’t it glorious? Don’t you think that magnificent?” The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can’t help doing, about everything else we value.
I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment.”
I should have replied to your reply, my bad haha. Perhaps I should register too?
Whether you want a debate or not that will probably happen when you present those kinds of ideas here. Then again I am not getting a debate here am I?
What has been said in your reply if it makes any sense would only in the context of the mythology. But, as it is still very much mythology and has little to no evidential basis it would be pointless to continue arguing over it.
If you have anything other than bible verses, C.S. Lewis quotes, and praises for God such as tangible evidence or even a rational argument I will entertain it. Otherwise, it would be the same as if we argued over Harry Potter or some other fictional story.
You opened the door to my 'mythological' comments when you posed the question: Why doesn't God kill Satan…? That question assumes that God and Satan exist (and I'm further assuming that you're talking about the God and Satan of the Bible), which means you're posing the question in a mythological context. If you're assuming that mythological context than it only makes sense to answer that question with mythological theology. You even attempt to do this by saying, “It would seem to me in the context of this mythology that Satan is just a minion of God because nobody in their right mind would willingly go against such a petty, cruel, violent, vindictive and malevolent being knowing that he is also all-powerful.” So if you're trying to provide a conclusion in the context of this mythology, then why can't I? You follow me?
I would gladly discuss rationally and logically about it, but you just threw back at me a bunch of assumptions without backing them up. Preaching does not help discussion.
Even within the context of the mythology God needs to live up to those attributes before they can be said to apply to him. So, for example, saying that God is love doesn't count for anything. Even within the context of the mythology there can be inconsistencies. But, presuppositions will not do anything to dispel them.
In the end, John Piper and I came to the same conclusion, that Satan is the minion of God. But, this brings up a contradiction in that Satan as clever as he is made to be willingly goes up against God knowing all well that he will be destroyed by him. Furthermore, God uses Satan to glorify him which is a vain and selfish act. This is an act that could be only seen to be beneficial if you follow God. Please, note that there is a difference between being a follower of God and merely granting that he exists, i.e. the within the context of the mythology bit.
Do you feel me?
I do, and I actually agree with you when you said “This is an act that could be only seen to be good and beneficial if you follow God.”
And you and I are both making presuppositions. Books have been written about these topics in order to qualify them…I don't have that kind of time haha. But perhaps in the future I'll better qualify them for your sake (and other readers…if anyone reads these comments).
Well I partially agree with you on that statement, but that's another topic so I'll leave it at that.
at least one person reads the comments, FWIW.
I think your second post here rather misses the point. There's nothing megalomaniacal about “being the best”, as you suggest. The egotism comes in with the weird shit like demanding Abraham kill his only son and then saying, “Whoops, just kidding!”
As our host suggests in this blog entry, it's very strange to think that god created satan in perfect knowledge of satan's actions. Of course angels “have free will”, but this statement is rather meaningless with an omniscient and omnipotent deity roaming the countryside. (theological attempts to reconcile providence and free will are unintelligible. I'd be satisfied if the two were both possible in god despite the apparent contradiction, if theology called it a paradox, but that's not what usually happens.)
The free will vs. divine sovereignty debate is one that will never be settled. And to be honest, I’m fine with that. I think it’s very healthy to discuss these topics but it sadens me when Christians argue so much over this to the point of division. I think they are both possible in God (as you mentioned) and I think this is what the Bible teaches. How are the both possible at the same time? Although I think attributing everything to ‘the mystery of God’ is usually a cop out answer, this is one of those things I think I’ll never understand with my finite mind and that doesn’t bother me.
The free will vs. divine sovereignty debate is one that will never be settled. And to be honest, I'm fine with that. I think it's very healthy to discuss these topics but it sadens me when Christians argue so much over this to the point of division. I think they are both possible in God (as you mentioned) and I think this is what the Bible teaches. How are the both possible at the same time? Although I think attributing everything to 'the mystery of God' is usually a cop out answer, this is one of those things I think I'll never understand with my finite mind and that doesn't bother me.