This is a continuation of Obstacles for the Soul.
If the mind is immaterial and not limited by space then why is it limited to our physical bodies? If mind had those characteristics then our consciousness would not be limited to our bodies. But, everywhere my body goes my mind is also there. Rather, if mind is immaterial and not limited by space then it transcends space. We should be conscious of all the universe. If you think about it every mind would be godlike.
Furthermore, the mind is considered the true ’self’. The body is only a container. So, you should have no problems if I cut off some of your fingers. Better yet why don’t I free you from your container by killing you? That is what you are hoping for isn’t it? Life after death? What difference does it make when it happens? You will be spending an eternity in such a bodiless state anyways. It’s better to get you accustomed to it now.
Besides that, those of you who are pro-life would be in a moral dilemma. Abortion would not be wrong at all. If a embryo/fetus has a fully formed soul then it is alive regardless if its physical container is aborted. Its body may have died, but it has not died because the soul is its true self. Then again they might go to hell because they have not been baptized and cleansed of their original sin. But, that’s something you would have to take up with your Creator who made up this stupid guilty by genealogical rule.
![[del.icio.us]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/delicious.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
![[Digg]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/digg.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
![[Facebook]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/facebook.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
![[Google]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/google.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
![[Reddit]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/reddit.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
![[StumbleUpon]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/stumbleupon.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
![[Twitter]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/twitter.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
![[Yahoo!]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/yahoo.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
![[Email]](http://thearmchairantichrist.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/email.png "Another Challenge to Mind Body Dualists")
Related posts:
NULL
NULL
NULL
NULL
NULL
(http://mojoey
“We should be conscious of all the universe. If you think about it every mind would be godlike.” Possibly, but then again, possibly not. I'm far from convinced that this follows from the immateriality of mind.
I think that the problem in general of saying that the mind is immaterial (in any sense other than the sense in which, for example, an abstraction is immaterial) is that it's generally really not clear what on earth this does mean. I'm not sure, along with you, that what most people mean by this is at all coherent.
I think it does follow. It cannot be articulated how something immaterial and not limited by space can only be aware of what happens in a certain part of space. Something with those attributes must transcend space.
Think of it like how the sphere in flatlanders transcends the 2-D world. The sphere can intersect the 2-D world and appear as a circle, but he is also aware of the whole 2-D world. If the soul is something that transcends our dimension, but sometimes intersects it, then it should be aware of all that happens in this dimension.
But, you're right about the concept not having a coherent ontology.
So I agree that your interpretation of what is meant by the immateriality of the soul is a reasonable one, and your conclusion follows logically from this interpretation.
My point, however, is that I don't think it's the only interpretation. To be other than X does not necessarily imply transcending X. One interpretation, which has always seemed to me the default interpretation (though I'm not sure why; I may well be in the minority) of mind-body dualism is that the mind and the body are simply made of completely different substances, and these two substances somehow interact. It does not follow from this that either transcends the other, only that they are different and behave differently; and, just as the mind is not limited by body-stuff (i.e. the physical), the body is also not limited by soul-stuff. But, again, unlimitedness does not mean transcendence; if there are other universes parallel to this one, I am clearly unlimited by their laws, and inhabitants of those universes are unlimited by the laws of mine. But neither they nor I transcend the other's universe. Except, of course, however one interprets this kind of dualism, there seems to be a desire to have one's cake and eat it: while neither stuff is limited by the other, they're supposed to interact, which means that each quite clearly must limit the other, which is a glaring contradiction. I think this is your main point, and I agree entirely.
Of course, there's another flavour of dualism that rejects the unlimitedness entirely, which removes that particular contradiction, but still raises the difficult question of what it actually means for mind and body to be made of different stuff.
I do understand the interpretation that the soul is just another substance. But, I just don't think it makes sense without further explanation.
“only that they are different and behave differently”
My reasoning is that everything that is in this universe obeys the laws within it. So, for something to be able to behave differently than regular stuff it would make more sense if it transcended it and did not have to obey the laws of the lower dimension.
“But, again, unlimitedness does not mean transcendence; if there are other universes parallel to this one, I am clearly unlimited by their laws, and inhabitants of those universes are unlimited by the laws of mine. But neither they nor I transcend the other's universe.”
But, neither are you said to appear or exist in other universes. On the other hand souls are said to exist in every human being. And they interact with our bodies.
“while neither stuff is limited by the other, they're supposed to interact, which means that each quite clearly must limit the other, which is a glaring contradiction”
This is a great point.
I do understand the interpretation that the soul is just another substance. But, I just don't think it makes sense without further explanation.
“only that they are different and behave differently”
My reasoning is that everything that is in this universe obeys the laws within it. So, for something to be able to behave differently than regular stuff it would make more sense if it transcended it and did not have to obey the laws of the lower dimension.
“But, again, unlimitedness does not mean transcendence; if there are other universes parallel to this one, I am clearly unlimited by their laws, and inhabitants of those universes are unlimited by the laws of mine. But neither they nor I transcend the other's universe.”
But, neither are you said to appear or exist in other universes. On the other hand souls are said to exist in every human being. And they interact with our bodies.
“while neither stuff is limited by the other, they're supposed to interact, which means that each quite clearly must limit the other, which is a glaring contradiction”
This is a great point.
[...] even want to start with the soul. You can find what I have written about on that topic here and here. The bottom line is that however mysterious and unobservable the mind is, the soul is even more so. [...]